mantua makers 1800-1820 stays help

[jwray]

I know there is another post out there on the mantua maker stays but I hated to hijack her thread with my own questions...

I completed my 1st mock-up today and tried it on and am having some fitting issues and am looking for some more expert advice.

Overall I think the whole thing is too big - I can completely lace it closed with no gap in the back at all. BUT I think the front panel fits nicely although the bust gussets need to be lengthened as I am a well endowed lady (in the photos linked below you can see my under bust extends way below the gussets).

My thinking is this.... Plan A) I believe I should keep the front panel the current size or maybe cut it one size smaller and drop the rest of the pieces by two sizes. I used size 18 which matches my measurements for bust and hip exactly although is about three inches larger in the waist than I - 40.5 instead of 37 inches.

Plan B) just go with the directions and drop it one size and try this all over again and hope for better results...it just seems that one size down still wouldn't give me any kind of lacing gap...

Plan C) ? I am open to suggestions

I did sew two lacing strips with eyelets that I can baste onto a mock-up and take off to re-use on other projects. As a side note I found I really enjoy sewing eyelets by hand...

Any critiques would be most welcome and very much appreciated -

photos on flikr www.flickr.com/photos/9102634@N06/

*** edited to add - I know these pics are horrible and not very flattering but I was in a hurry and only had my daughter and her questionable photography skills at hand - my apologies

[Izodiea]

I think plan A sounds good, When I made my stays I kept the front the same and made the side front/side back smaller. Fit well after that.

[dawnluckham]

I’m going to be a pain and ask you to try the stays on again and position the top of the stays at bust point.

I think you’ve got them on too high up.

I find this pattern runs very long. If you’re not very tall, the stays are almost always way to long for the body. You’ll need to correct that by taking a big pleat/tuck in the mock-up to position the waist at your natural waist and the hip in the correct spot.

I also agree that this size is too big for you. If you like the fit of the front (once you try them on with the top edge at bust point), then, yes, of course: Keep the front panel and make adjustments to the side and back panels.

Normally when I make corset or stays mock-ups I place the seams on the outside so that I can simply start pinching them in and pinning in order to custom fit them to the body.

Is your daughter old enough to help be a fitting buddy and help with pinning?

Instead of going to the “bother” of cutting out the next size down, I would work with this mock-up: Get a good idea of the waist change first.

Once you’ve got the bust in the right place and the waist in the right place and the hip where it should be, make that tuck all the way around the waist. Pin it and then baste it down. Make whatever modifications you need to make to the busk pocket in order for it to work.

Next put an excellent push up bra on. Get your bust as high as you want the stays to make it. Put the stays on with the seam allowances to the outside. Make the lacing gap an even 3 inches all the way down. Now you’re going to start pinching in and pinning the seams all the way down. Try and make things VISUALLY even. They won’t be really even because everyone’s body has irregularities, but you want them to LOOK like they’re even. Get the stays as snug and as fitted as you can make them with pins.

Take the stays off and use a fine tip marker or a ball point pen: Write “right side front”, “left side front”, “right back”, etc on them. Also indicate on every single piece which edge is UP – put an arrow on it! This is important. Once you take the pins and the stitching out you may not be able to tell top from bottom.

Take your pen and indicate the seam lines on every panel where you’ve pinned it.

Now you can take the pins out and take the seams apart. Leave the waistline tuck in every panel.

Press them all. Trim all seam allowances to your ½ inch or 5/8ths or whatever seam allowance you want to use. These panels are your final pattern. Proceed according to pattern directions.

[dawnluckham]

I didn't remember to mention the bust gussets. Once you've got the stays fitted to your shape and all the seams pinned, if the bust gussets need modification you can do this now.

It's tricky to not catch or cut your clothes, but this is my method. I slash (cut with scissors) straight down the centre of the gussets to the bottom of the breast (to where an underwire would sit). Then I use masking tape to modify the gussets. I can make them smaller by simpy overlapping the slashed bits of fabric, or I can make them larger by tucking the tape behind the gusset fabric (sticky side facing out so as not to tape it to your clothing). Stick the fabric flaps of the slashed gusset to the tape - widening the gusset.

Again, each gusset will be a slightly different size. The trick is to make them look symetrical.

If you want to put more tape over the sticky part so the tape is smooth on both sides you can do that too.

Don't forget to indicate right and left with your pen.

[jwray]

Ok - I've tried to incorporate most of the advice received (thank you all). Photos uploaded to Flikr. www.flickr.com/photos/9102634@N06/

I've gone through two more mockups of the mantua makers stays and think I'm pretty close.

1st I picked apart my original and cut it down one pattern size and lengthened the gussets by about an inch/inch and a half but keeping the length the same. This is mockup #2.

Then I took out the boning and the lacing strips and created a fold along the waistline shortening the whole thing by an inch and a half. This is mockup #3.

Mockup 2 was better - my bust felt more lifted and less squished. Overall I was relatively pleased.

Mockup 3 was much better. I hadn't realized the whole thing was too long. (thank you Dawn)

I still might lengthen the bust gussets about another half inch and I am going to work on one more final mockup.

One area of concern - The bustline fits far better in length but I don't like the way it spreads out. I have considered a drawstring along the top of the stays or should I narrow the gusset inserts while keeping the length needed to lift the girls?

I don't recall seeing a drawstring on any extant samples but used that technique on my daughter's short stays and it worked quite well.

[dawnluckham]

Wow! These are SO- SO much better!!! GREAT work!!!

Okay, I still see a bit of a problem at the back. You’ll want a nice even gap in the lacing area. The gap is still too narrow at the upper back. I like an even 3 inch opening from top to bottom. You get this by loosening the stays (while you’ve got them on ) and making an nice even 3 inch gap all the way down. Make it run straight down centre back. Then use the seam allowances to make adjustments. You might want to slash open that back to side seam from the bottom of the stays up to about you waist. Allow it to hang while you make adjustments and you might find that it needs to be given a bit more room back there. Sometimes people add gussets to accommodate the curve of the back and the back hip, but I’m not sure you’ll need that – I think you just need to give a bit more room to the back panel through the seam.

I see you’re using cable ties for the boning.

This is perfectly fine, but I do find I prefer something firmer than cable ties between the lacing holes. Try doubling up the cable ties or if that still allows the lacing are to buckle, you may wish to consider ordering white spring steel bones for that area. Don’t order them yet – wait until you’ve got the stays exactly the way you want them and then you’ll have the cable ties for the perfect measure of your steel bones.

With regard to the bust gussets: I might not be seeing things exactly as they are, but make sure you’ve positioned the top edge of the stays exactly at bust point – If they’re at bust point and you still think you’d like to cut them a bit deeper, by all means, go ahead.

The position of the bust actually looks pretty good, but if you find your upper arm is brushing the side of the breast, I can see that you might want to work with that. Sometimes I run a cord inside the upper edge binding, but it’s not usually for controlling the bust position. This is to roll the upper edge of the stays inward just a tiny bit. It’s a trick to prevent “spillage” over the top of the stays. If you want to control the sideways position of the bust, from centre front, move the gussets inward (toward centre front) just a little bit. That is; when you cut the slashes for the gussets, position the slashes a bit more near centre front. Leave the same space between the sashes, just slide the both of them inward.

Again Wow! You’ve done a super job of adjusting things!

Oh! And one trick we haven’t yet mentioned: Have you tried sitting down yet? Sit on a hard stool or flat chair. If your bust is pushed upward, you need a shorter busk. You can play with this now so that you know how long the busk should be. The busk does not need to run the full length of the stays.

[lastbloom]

What an amazing difference between your three mock ups! The 3rd set looks fantastic!

[jwray]

Thank you all for the encouragement and advice - I am currently working on the 4th (and hopefully final) mockup. I have a hip gusset and three seams to go but I think I might hold off for a fitting until tomorrow. I went and slightly overindulged at our favorite Vietnamese buffet with my hubby and don't find the idea of lacing up the stays appealing at all right now.

I did lengthen the bust gussets slightly (by a bare half inch) but narrowed them also - I am hoping that will do the trick although I am thinking of including the drawstring for spillage control even if not historically accurate.

[Izodiea]

If you are using bias binding for the edges of the stays, a good alternative is to pull the bias tightly over the edge of the cup. This will pull in the top edge, but not be noticeable like a drawstring.

[jwray]

Wow, 4th mockup and I regressed truly. I didn't even have my daughter lace them all the way down as I knew things weren't right.

I had gone ahead and redone the bust gussets with slightly narrower gussets to address the "wide" platform issue I was having and it didn't work well at all. I am almost embarrassed to post the following pictures but I will go ahead. It doesn't help that my shift is crooked and the ruler I use to mimmick a busk came untaped during lacing either.

My plan now is not to cut a whole 'nother mockup but to rip out the gussets and go back to the original angle and redo them. Otherwise I think the third mockup is as close as I'm going to get at this point and I was pretty pleased with it at the time - I just thought the narrower gussets was a good idea - apparently not!

I did go ahead and insert a drawstring in the binding on the top and I think that it did what I wanted - so original gussets and drawstring it is. I'm getting kind of tired of mockups.

www.flickr.com/photos/9102634@N06/

I do thank you all for the advice - It has been very helpful.

[dawnluckham]

Don’t feel bad about the 4th mock-up. You had an idea that you wanted to try. We learn by trying things out!

What I thought I understood, was that you wanted was to reposition the bust. Reducing the SPACE for the bust (the gusset size) was not going to reposition anything. Smaller space was just going to squish things. Repositioning the slashes will reposition the bust – even if you only move the slashes ½ inch over.

Having that drawstring in the top edge, as well, is not about repositioning the bust. Ideally, you want that edge to be smooth – not gathered on a cord.

I think I missed the pictures of the back of mock-up #3. It looks VERY good! Take a half inch to an inch off the centre back edge and you’ll have a perfect gap!

Yay You!!! You’ve done beautifully! Pat yourself on the back!

[jwray]

Stays are finally done and I am fairly pleased with them. My daughter took the following pics (linked to Flikr) and they are not the most flattering. The stays actually look better in person - I was quite surprised - I thought to myself "it didn't look like that in the mirror!".

I don't care for the straps - I think they could have been dispensed with altogether. My binding job also really leaves a lot to be desired. Hubby keeps telling me that I'll get better at that and this is only my first set of stays/corset. I think in the future I will do that part by hand and not by machine for better control.

I did love my busk though - hubby found very thin aluminum at our local Lowes and cut it to size for me and rounded the corners. It does its job quite effectively and is yet flexible and comfortable. We got the idea because I had been using a metal ruler during my fittings. I picked up a paint stick at the store as many have suggested but it seemed so thick and unwieldy. The aluminum was about 1/8 inch thick and cost less than $3. I'd highly recommend that option to others.

I wore them for about an hour and was pretty comfortable - most comfortable standing/walking. Sitting was fine as long as my posture was good and it did feel as if the stays pushed up the "girls" pretty high. I'm not sure how normal this is or if it is still a fitting problem I might fix in the future.

Overall I'm happy and am ready to move on to making my gown. Thank you all who have offered such wonderful advice. It was all extremely helpful.

Photos here: www.flickr.com/photos/9102634@N06

[Eleanor]

Looks good! I've made 3 mock ups of this pattern as well, and I'm still working at getting it right.

I had the same feeling about the straps. They really seem unnecessary and they tend to slide down my shoulders. I've moved them and adjusted them and still have problems. I have slopey shoulders. I'm wondering if anyone has experience with going strapless? Good idea, bad idea? Is there some really good reason for having them that I haven't thought of?

[dawnluckham]

You’ve done a great job on your first corset! You should be pleased.

Your husband is right: If you make another in the future you will improve at each step of the way.

I like to put the binding on in a two-step process. I machine sew the binding to the outside of the corset and then I fold and press the binding around the raw edges and hand sew the binding on the inside of the corset. I find I have much more control this way.

Interesting choice for the busk. You’ll have to let us know, in time, how you like it.

With regard to the straps: If you move the back of the straps further inward toward centre back your straps will stay on sloping shoulders better. You just cut the straps off the (traced) pattern piece and tape it back on where it’s more suitable for your shoulder. You still want the straps to sit wide on the front so they don’t peek out of the wide neckline of the period gown, but you can bring them inward a long way in the back.

For what it’s worth, I haven’t seen many examples of ANY of the multitude of period corset options that are without straps. The straps seem to be a definite part of the Regency era stays or corset.