Naval Uniforms

[Goblin, esq.]

Unsurprisingly, the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich has a large collection of garments relating to the Royal Navy, including the uniform Lord Nelson was mortally wounded in.

Fortunately, pictures of many of these garments are online, at the
www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/ web site. Even better, there are close-up pictures of many details, so you can see how the buttonholes were made, or the pattern of the gold braid.

This is the coat I used as a model for my RN uniform:

www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=UNI0043

(I wish I'd found this site before I made my uniform, as I had to work from a small black and white photo , but I am happy to discover that the original is lined in white silk twill, as is mine. Although I'd be willing to bet my silk is probably of a much lower quality!)

[leslie]

Chris,

I hope to be making a uniform coat for my husband. Is the white part on the front essentially a continuation of the lining or is it another fabric altogether? Where do you suppose the cotton and linen were used?

Regards,
Leslie

[Goblin, esq.]

The white facings (lapels) and cuffs are probably wool, while the lining is silk. So it would be a separate piece of fabric. The cotton and linen might have been used for interlining (or lining where it wouldn't be visible when worn), also pocket bags and other such smaller pieces.

I'm glad to hear you are making a uniform for your husband, and hope I can be helpful and encouraging throughout the process! Which time period are you considering? The 1795-1812 uniform regulations didn't have the white facings (except for lieutenants), while the 1812-1820(?) regulations have white facings for all officers.

Note that (as discussed on the Uniform uniforms thread) officers' uniforms were made by their tailors, and there was considerable variation in cut and style.

[Goblin, esq.]

chrisber said:

Note that (as discussed on the Uniform uniforms thread) officers' uniforms were made by their tailors, and there was considerable variation in cut and style.

By way of example, I quote from the United States Uniform Regulations of 1814 (I can't find the text of any of the period Royal Navy regulations anywhere on the web, only quoted bits):

CAPTAINS' FULL DRESS.
THE COAT of blue cloth, with broad lappels and lining of the same; a standing collar, and to be trimmed with gold lace, not exceeding one half inch in breadth, nor less than three eighths of and inch, in the following manner, to wit: Round the standing collar, and to descend round the lappels to the bottom of the coat; the upper part of the cuffs, round the pocket flaps, and down the folds, with one single lace; four buttons on the cuffs and on the pocket flaps, nine on the lappels, and one on the standing collar; two gold epaulets; the buttons of yellow metal, with the foul anchor and American eagle, surrounded with fifteen stars.

Pantaloons and Vest white. The vest single breasted, four buttons to the pockets, the buttons the same as the coat, only proportionably smaller.

Note how there's no description of the shape of the coat, the length of the tails, etc. and no reference to a sealed pattern or suchlike.

[The Major]

U.S. Army regulations (a bit of trouble finding full descriptions for British Army on the web also) do include a general length of the tails as it is based on level of officer. E.g. company grade officers the tails to be short, field grade and general staff are long. But like the Navy, no mention of pattern or cut. I believe Mssr. Goblin and I are of the same mind that since officers had to purchase their own uniforms, there was some leeway as long as the uniform was within the spirit of the regulation. After all, the regulations are not specific enough to be otherwise.

[leslie]

Dear Mssr. Goblin,

My husband is considering a captain's coat from 1812, most probably based on this one:

www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=UNI0096

Coincidentally, a few weeks ago a friend showed us what I assume is the webpage for your own uniform. My compliments on your tailoring and your website! I had bought a Recollections of JP Ryan pattern and was hoping to use parts of that to help construct the pattern and provide a clue about construction for Eric's coat, but I'm afraid it won't be as much of a help as I had hoped. I have looked at Waugh already, and intend to shamelessly follow up on the other resources mentioned - Davis and Shep. Thank goodness "there was considerable variation in cut and style."

I would indeed appreciate any encouragement and helpful hints you could provide!

Regards,
Leslie

[Goblin, esq.]

I bought the buttons for my uniform from "The Discriminating General" in Canada, and I recommend them. (Not particularly cheap, but authentic.) I see that they are also selling melton wool at reasonable prices, too.

www.militaryheritage.com/button1.htm

What is more, they have pictures of a reproduction 1812 post-captain's uniform they made:

www.militaryheritage.com/navyuniforms.htm

This last page also has images of an 1813 tailor's notes on the uniform in question.

[Mme de Beaufort]

I was perusing their sites... they have weapons too.

[leslie]

Thank you! We did look at the Military Heritage site for wool, but their minimum order is 10 meters so we decided to get it from another source (Wm. Booth, Draper). I am hoping to place the order this afternoon.

I got the first muslin made up (sans sleeves) and have a few adjustments to make. The most problematic will be the lapels. They need much work; they were much too small and the angle at the top was not right.

Does anyone have any suggestions about the buttonholes? Eric wants working buttonholes. Since we're dealing with two colours here, are the buttonholes on each layer (the white and the blue) bound and cut separately before the pieces are united? Are they not bound at all on the blue? I wish I could examine an actual uniform from the period to check.

"A couple of weeks work" indeed. I am afraid it will certainly not be done in time for our Jane Austen Ball on May 4.

wishing she were independently wealthy so she could stay home and sew,
Leslie

[Goblin, esq.]

leslie said:

Does anyone have any suggestions about the buttonholes? Eric wants working buttonholes. Since we're dealing with two colours here, are the buttonholes on each layer (the white and the blue) bound and cut separately before the pieces are united? Are they not bound at all on the blue? I wish I could examine an actual uniform from the period to check.

That is an excellent question, and one I confess I hadn't thought about. The pictures I've seen clearly show white buttonholes on the white facings, and blue buttonholes on the blue coat, but how that was achieved I do not know.

[Eleanor]

Another question for those who've made naval uniforms...

It looks like one would use a "natural" white for the vest and breeches. Should the shirt also be this color or should I go with a bleached white for that?

Or am I off base completely? ;-)

Kindly,
~Barbara

[Goblin, esq.]

Apr 26, 2010 9:58:37 GMT -5 Eleanor said:

It looks like one would use a "natural" white for the vest and breeches. Should the shirt also be this color or should I go with a bleached white for that?

That's what it looks like to me, too, based on the paintings, photographs, and vague recollections of the last time I saw any actual garments. The smallclothes (vest/waistcoat and breeches are off-white, but the coat facings and lining are true white. (Although in some paintings the facings and waistcoat appear to be the same shade.)

Most shirt collars (and stocks, when white stocks are word) are a bleached white, which would happen from frequent washings and drying in the sunlight.

My random guess is that it's harder to get wool bleached pure white, which makes it more expensive, probably too expensive for the more frequently replaced smallclothes.

[Eleanor]

Thanks, Chris.

By the way, have you gotten your copy of Dressed to Kill yet? I'm curious to know what you think of it.

Kindly,
~Barbara

[Goblin, esq.]

Apr 30, 2010 8:58:16 GMT -5 Eleanor said:

By the way, have you gotten your copy of Dressed to Kill yet? I'm curious to know what you think of it.

Yes, I got it a week or two ago, and I am almost done reading it. I'm hoping to post a review somewhere on these boards, but the short form is: I liked it a lot, and wish I'd had it ten years ago.

[Eleanor]

Another question relating to uniforms... Can anyone suggest where to get a quality, but reasonably priced bicorn hat? Is it possible to make one? (I've never done any felting, or felt hat making before, but I'm always willing to try something new.) :-)

Kindly,
Barbara

[lastbloom]

I've never seen their products in person, but hatcrafters.com has a wide selection of styles. Page 5 has a few styles that might be appropriate. I'm no expert, though Perhaps some of the gentlemen can speak to the quality of these chapeaux?

[Eleanor]

Thanks, Meg! That's a site I hadn't seen yet.


Kindly,
~Barbara

[Goblin, esq.]

I ended up making my bicorn from scratch, using rather non-period materials, since I couldn't find a hat blank with a large enough brim.

The hat was built from scratch using _From the Neck Up: An Illustrated Guide to Hatmaking_ by Denise Dreher. It's black wool cloth over a buckram shape. The crown was formed over a cheap polyester felt pirate hat. This was my first attempt at hatmaking, so I don't have anything to compare it to.
The cockade is made of silk. I starched the hell out of the pieces, then folded each up like an accordion, and fixed it to the hat with wire around the middle of the bundle. A little glue was used to keep the edges together.

I haven't bought from hatcrafters.com, so I can't speak as to their quality or pricing, but No. 959 on page 12 is probably a big enough blank to make a bicorn from.

[Goblin, esq.]

I also found a bicorn (athwart, not fore-and-aft) on this site, www.top-hats.com/7155D.htm, which resells hats made by hatcrafters.com.

[Eleanor]

Does anyone have a less expensive source for Royal Navy buttons? I have looked at the "The Discriminating General" and I'll use them if I cannot find anything cheaper.

Also, in your opinion, are the buttons on the waistcoat and breaches the same size as the coat?