RH804: 1790s - 1810s Frock Coat Discussion

[Goblin, esq.]

www.reconstructinghistory.com/index.php?s=&c=22&d=121&e=&f=&g=&w=21&q=1&p=190&r=Y

I got the pattern in the mail a couple of weeks ago, but I haven't done anything with it, hence the lack of posting. I'm very unlikely to get around to making it up until May (after Costume-Con), so this post doesn't contain a lot of meaty content.

I'm thinking of making one of green wool, the same fabric as I used for my previous (sadly un-period, given what I've learned since making it) green coat.


With the pattern come a page of history with a few line drawings, and a bibliography (most of which titles I recognize!)

The instructions describe how to make it up both using modern techniques and period hand sewing. Also included are instructions on period stitches. The instructions seem thorough, from my brief read-through, and I know the drafter, Kass McGann, is quick to reply to questions via email, should you have any.

The pattern makes up a frock coat either double or single breasted, with a deep stand and fall collar (i.e. an early Regency collar - no M-notch), and a buttoning placket on the sleeve. The only pockets are on the inside of the coat, one on each hip.

When I get around to making it, I'll be sure to post pictures!

[dawnluckham]

Chris, I don’t know if you regularly read the Reconstructing History yahoo board, but Kass did a great job of explaining the pattern to my friend Charlene.

The main thing is that this new pattern is taken from two SILK (not wool) coats. Construction techniques for silk and wool are different. Also, the sleeve opening at the wrist is not as illustrated on the pattern cover. It’s quite different and in an “odd-to-us” location.

I haven’t yet seen the results of Charlene’s coat. She’s an incredible costumer and whether the pattern was wonderful or not, the completed coat will be a beautiful garment.

She tells me, however, her search for the “perfect” men’s coat pattern has not yet ended.

[Goblin, esq.]

I don't read the Reconstructing History yahoo board, but I probably should! I'll definitely take a look before starting sewing this one.

I don't have the pattern in front of me (at work) but I believe the sleeve placket is close to the front seam of the arm? That would put it on top of the wrist, which seems odd to modern eyes. When I made my naval uniform, the cuff placket is actually set in the front sleeve, so I've done this once before.

(There's a marvellous picture of my cuffs near the end of the slideshow of one of our dance practices, done by the Palo Alto Weekly News, who gave us a very nice article:

www.paloaltoonline.com/news/show_story.php?id=4530)

[maudelynn]

dawnluckham said:

Chris, I don’t know if you regularly read the Reconstructing History yahoo board, but Kass did a great job of explaining the pattern to my friend Charlene.

I cannot seem to find this yahoo board, and I have been searching for a bit now.
Do you have a link ?

Edited to say:
I sorted it, the second I said I couldn't find it... I DID

[Mme de Beaufort]

I just ordered this pattern, I will be making 2 frock-coats, one for my husband, one for a lovely single gentleman by the name of Kevin. I'll provide a review as soon as I've completed it.

[Goblin, esq.]

May 5, 2008 13:03:07 GMT -5 Mme de Beaufort said:

I just ordered this pattern, I will be making 2 frock-coats, one for my husband, one for a lovely single gentleman by the name of Kevin. I'll provide a review as soon as I've completed it.

At the rate I'm going you'll be done long before I start cutting fabric!

[Mme de Beaufort]

I'm going to *have* to; Kevin's frock-coat has a deadline. Dan could always wear one of his old ones.

[Mrs Parker]

Is the Reconstructing History Frock coat pattern preferred over the rocking horse farms tailcoat pattern?

[dawnluckham]

Not necessarily, Pam. The Reconstructing History coat is a new pattern and hasn’t been out long enough to see several examples yet. It is designed to be made in SILK as opposed to wool and the construction information is for a silk garment. If you’re making a wool coat, you’re going to have to come up with your own construction method to be completely accurate as the methods differ a fair amount.

I don’t specialize in men’s garments, but I do have a costuming friend that has been seeking the “ideal” men’s coat pattern for a very long time and has (after careful perusal of the pattern) included the Reconstructing History pattern in her ‘rejected’ lot.

So far the best two patterns out there are the Past Patterns military coats for this period, which then need modification to redesign them into civilian coats.

So far, the specific problem with the men’s coats patterns out there is the cut of the back and the way the sleeve fits into the armscye. Most of the coat patterns my friend and I have looked at have a modern style back cut, which really takes away from the beauty of so many period men’s coats.

[Mme de Beaufort]

Oh dear. Does this mean I'm going to have issues with this RH pattern? I can't find the Rocking Horse Farm pattern; and I want to make these in a light wool.

Argh!

[cosmoblue]

May 6, 2008 10:11:26 GMT -5 Mme de Beaufort said:

Oh dear. Does this mean I'm going to have issues with this RH pattern? I can't find the Rocking Horse Farm pattern; and I want to make these in a light wool.

Argh!

I am sure that you will be fine.

Dawn said "If you’re making a wool coat, you’re going to have to come up with your own construction method to be completely accurate as the methods differ a fair amount."

Since I know that it is not usually first in your priorities to have 100% historical accuracy I think that the construction that you use for silk can be used for a light wool. The two fabrics can be treated the same if you would like. If you were concerned about the accuracy you would need to tailor you wool differently since it steams and moulds so differently. The look should be the same.

[Mme de Beaufort]

No, I'm not big on having the closest thing to historic accuracy as possible; I just want it to look good. I'm hoping that doing this pattern in a light wool as opposed to silk won't make it ugly. I'd like my gentlemen to look nice.

At this point, I suppose anything's better than the one my husband has now.

I would still rather have the RHF pattern.

[Goblin, esq.]

May 6, 2008 6:17:34 GMT -5 dawnluckham said:

So far, the specific problem with the men’s coats patterns out there is the cut of the back and the way the sleeve fits into the armscye. Most of the coat patterns my friend and I have looked at have a modern style back cut, which really takes away from the beauty of so many period men’s coats.

Now I'm curious. Is it possible for you to give examples on what makes a modern style cut to the back of a coat?

[dawnluckham]

Oh dear! Steph, it wasn't my intent to put you off the pattern. It was simply a caution about the construction techniques. I'd love to know how your coats turn out. I'm sure they'll look sensational. There's a problem with patterns for men in this period. We don't have all we wish we could have and the ideal man's wool coat pattern has yet to turn up.

Chris, I'm away from home (again!) and on a poor internet connection. I'll come back to this later, but specifically, the coat patterns have the back and sleeve inset not quite right for (say) 1810 (ish). I know Kass has said in the pattern that she's taken these directly from two silk coats. I'd love to know where the coats are and if I could see them. (nice wish isn't it? ) I'm not saying these are cut like OUR modern coats, but they look a bit later to my eye - (perhaps 18-tens or twenties???) I'm quite willing to be proven wrong ;D and quite willing to learn more but so far, I haven't seen the sleeve inset I'm looking for in ready to purchase patterns.

[dawnluckham]

Okay, Coming back to this subject as promised, now that I'm at home and have my computer back:

Now I have a bit of time to try to explain myself in regard to “the search for the *ideal* men’s coat pattern.”

As I said before, my main complaint with the men’s coat patterns that exist is in the cut and the set of the sleeve. Most of the men’s patterns have the shoulder seam / armscye where we would put it in a modern men’s coat today. That is, it sets itself at the end of the shoulder and drops to a more open under arm seam falling several inches below the actual armpit.

During the early decades of the 19th century, English tailors prided themselves (and were known throughout the Western world) for their ability to manipulate wool and achieve a beautiful fit. (Anyone who has sewn with wool understands what a remarkable fabric this is in that it can be steamed and it can shrink out puckers and it can be stretched to shape and form. It is possible to actually “sculpt” a garment with steam and pressure. Amazing stuff!)

Look at this sketch of Lord Grantham by Ingres c. 1816:



Notice how closely under the arm the sleeve fits into the coat body. Notice also that the seam on top of the shoulder is about an inch or so inward from where it might be placed on a coat today. The shoulder seams don’t move out to the tip of the shoulder until somewhere about the 1820’s when more fullness is added to the sleeve. Even in portraiture of the 1820’s you can see this very close cut.

The back of the sleeve is scooped inward. Believe me, this cut gives an amazing range of motion that many times, coats don’t offer today.

Here is an extent silk coat – photos are a challenge and you may have to copy and enlarge in Word to get a good look at the back of the armscye: dept.kent.edu/museum/exhibit/nudity/CG_4239.htm

I have yet to see this cut in any other sewing patterns other than the Past Patterns military coats I mentioned before.

There is a rather nice 1790-1800 silk coat grid pattern in “Fitting & Proper” by Sharon Ann Burnston. Sadly the photo of the back of the coat doesn’t show off the shoulder cut to the best advantage as the manikin allows the sleeve to wrinkle in that area. – And again – this is a silk coat – not a wool coat. Silk must have some wearing ease, where as the wool can be sculpted for the closest body fit.

I own both the Rocking Horse Farms men’s coat pattern AND the new Reconstructing History pattern. Both are decent enough coat patterns but they still don’t offer the cut of the armscye that I’m looking for. I’ve heard men complain that the coats restrict their movement (and I believe them!). The reason the coats restrict movement is because the underarm of the coat is cut too low and there is no scoop into the back and over the shoulder to give the full range of motion that the period cut allows.

[Goblin, esq.]

Dawnluckham,

Thank you very much for the very clear description! I think I've been on the right track so far, and will pay closer attention to the the back of the armscye when I draft/modify patterns.

[Mme de Beaufort]

I expressed concern abou the silk/wool issues when I called to add the 'morning' dress pattern to my order; and I was told by Kass in none so many words that I was rattling off pure nonsense.

I suppose only time will tell.

I may do it in a silk anyway... we'll see where Kevin's budget is and mine for that matter.

[dawnluckham]

“Nonsense”, huh?

That’s an interesting response and frankly it surprises me… Kass is experienced enough to know the differences in the characteristics between working with silk and working with wool. A comment like that makes me wonder why she would respond like that…

(Steph, I'm not questioning your interpretation of what she said at all. I'm more musing on WHY she'd say that.)

I’ve SEEN (up close and personal) both wool and silk coats from this era. One of the main differences is that the raw edge of the silk fabric needs to be finished somehow – either hemmed or lined or faced. The wool coats I’ve seen are sometimes not lined at all or are only partially lined. Raw cut edges of wool are often left as is as the wool (beautiful dense wool – “super fine” and “melton cloth”) don’t unravel and the mind set of the period was ‘why line it or hem it or face it if the edges don’t need stabilization?’

In studying wool coats constructed with unfinished raw edges, it’s easier to understand how the complicated M-notch collar became popular.

Truly, between the two different types of fabric the construction techniques also differ.

[Mme de Beaufort]

Dawn, more explicitly Kass said "That's bull" when I asked her about the wool/silk conundrum. She said I'd have no issues at all.

She was funny -- she was telling me to wait about my ordering question until her 'shipping person' got back... he was was out walking the dog... I asked if it was her "Shipping Husband" and she burst out laughing, confessing he was her shipping person indeed.

She's very personable and sweet, and was probably trying to assuage my worry.

[aylwen]

I have used a few patterns and yes, the RHF pattern has hopeless sleeves. We need tight armscye for our dancing, and my way of getting it to work was to use the sleeve from Wingeo, and the body of RHF.
Cheers, Aylwen